gnupic: Thread: Dude! How do you make PCBs?

I realize that this is a Pandora's box topic. But I've finally reached the
realization that I'm going to have to come up with something sturdier than
wire wrap. One of my permanent projects (a wall mounted thermostat)
is falling apart after a couple of years of use. So I'm I wandering into the
realm of PCB making and I'm soliciting advise.

Now not to come in empty handed I come with a few of the resources I've been
doing research from/with. Then the questions.

RESOURCES
---------
One of the best groups I've seen on the subject is the Yahoo group Homebrew
PCBs: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
They talk about every method under the sun and have a vast amount of resources.

One of the best overall "how to do it" posts can be found here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/839

Eagle (http://www.cadsoft.de) does represent an opportunity for schematic and
board layout of small boards. However both the free and hobbyist versions of
the products are quite limited. The cost for reasonable sized (4" x 6") boards 
is $125! (And only for strictly non commercial use) Ouch!!! 
I've been playing with it and will probably use it for my first couple of 
tests. More in my questions.

The PicList has several extended threads on the subject. You can find it at
http://www.piclist.com and Google archives it.

Some interesting suppliers:

   Circuit Specialists: http://www.web-tronics.com
      Really cheap presensistized copper boards

   Dyna-Art: http://www.dynaart.com
      Silver plating among other items.

   Austin Electronics: http://www.austinelex.com/ae_118.htm
      PCB PhotoFab kit 
  
After slogging through all the posts and all the different techniques I
finally concluded that presensitied positive photoresist boards etched in
plain old Ferric Cloride optimizes the costs and process repeatability.

QUESTIONS
---------------------------------------------------

Now on to the questions. The reason that I'm here is that this mailing list
probably has the largest proportion of Linux/Unix/Open Source users in
relation to the PICLIST of Homebrew PCB. And most of my issues are related to
software.

1 and 1A) 
   Any Eagle users? I'm looking for one small eagle tip. How in the heck
   do you create a power bus? I've used a few of the numerous tutorials
   out there to layout my first board (a 16F628, 3 resistors, and an 
   LED). But I'm clueless as to how to create a physical representation 
   of the power supply buses. Just draw a thick line?

2) More Eagle. Is there any way to force the autorouter to generate a single
   sided board only? Even after forcing the cost of the top side to 99, 
   sometimes it will still generate a top side trace or two.

3) Final Eagle. Has anyone tried any tricks for creating larger boards by
   segmenting and cut/pasting the smaller boards into a larger board?

Non commercial Eagle (http://www.cadsoft.de/nonprofit.htm) may actually worth
the $125. But it's limitations and lack of Open Source does have some cause
for concern. So I'm interested to see if anyone has used PCB:

http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb

It's an Open Source PCB layout tool. It looks pretty good but it doesn't
seem to have a lot of support. No tutorials or examples outside of its
self contained documentation. I was wondering if anyone has used it?
Any tips or tutorials that you know of? Is it worth the investment of learning
or is Eagle the way to go?

I think in the long run it may be worth it. But I'm soliciting opinions.

Thanks,

BAJ

On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> It's an Open Source PCB layout tool. It looks pretty good but it doesn't
> seem to have a lot of support. No tutorials or examples outside of its
> self contained documentation. I was wondering if anyone has used it?
> Any tips or tutorials that you know of? Is it worth the investment of learning
> or is Eagle the way to go?
> 
I've been making PCBs myself for 6 months now, using open-source software.

I'm using xfig, the scale drawing program bundled with most linux 
distro's. It took a bit of trial and error, but what I do is draw 
everything on the canvas 10x bigger than normal scale, then export at 12% 
reduction to an image file, then print it out onto transparencies. Don't 
know why it's 12% when it should be 10%, it's probably something todo with 
my printer driver.

If you're going to use pre-sensitised boards, check their requirements wrt 
to developer solution. I wrecked a load of them because they had no label 
but were meant to be used with 1/2 strength developer solution.

I've even knocked up my own etching tank with an old servo, a few bits of 
wood and half a plastic bottle. Ferric Chloride is old fashioned and nasty 
stuff. I use a Sodium Persulphate based etchant. It takes a little longer 
to etch, but doesn't stain anywhere it spills and leaves a much cleaner 
PCB. You can also re-use it much more than Ferric Chloride.

Good luck,

Tim

On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 03:14  PM, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> So I'm interested to see if anyone has used PCB:
>
> http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb
>
> It's an Open Source PCB layout tool. It looks pretty good but it 
> doesn't
> seem to have a lot of support. No tutorials or examples outside of its
> self contained documentation. I was wondering if anyone has used it?
> Any tips or tutorials that you know of? Is it worth the investment of 
> learning
> or is Eagle the way to go?

Check the geda-user list (info at 
http://www.geda.seul.org/mailinglist/index.html)

I have used PCB, and I generated the PCB-format netlist and component 
list from gschem (http://www.geda.seul.org) and gschem2pcb. I had some 
trouble with the Gerber output of 1.6.x (arcs weren't being written 
properly) which went away when upgrading to the "hidden" release 1.99j. 
The gEDA list has pointers to the new version.

I used Advanced Circuits (http://4pcb.com) for fabrication-- their 
$33/each special is a pretty good deal, and there are no minimum 
quantities for orders shipped to academic institutions (IIRC). You 
would do well to try their FreeDFM service to catch some layout 
problems, but note that it can get a little confused on complex 
designs. Try to talk to a CAD person there if you have questions.

Autorouting is possible in 1.6 with some MUCS integration patches from 
DJ Delorie (also see geda lists) and there is an autorouter integrated 
with 1.99, but it didn't seem to work for me (and the only 
documentation seems to be the source).

If you're interested, sometime next week I can try and release my 
schematics and board files for the USB-capable 16C765 board that I did 
with gschem and PCB. They're all done, I just haven't put any GPL 
notices in any of the files yet.

I looked at Eagle once a few years ago, and didn't think the benefits 
(over gschem or Xcircuits) outweighed the license restrictions.

-- 
Charles Lepple ####@####.####
http://www.ghz.cc/charles/

At 4/25/2003, Byron A Jeff wrote:
 >I realize that this is a Pandora's box topic. But I've finally reached the
 >realization that I'm going to have to come up with something sturdier than
 >wire wrap. One of my permanent projects (a wall mounted thermostat)
 >is falling apart after a couple of years of use. So I'm I wandering into the
 >realm of PCB making and I'm soliciting advise.
 >

I have no experience with this company, but I am considering them for one 
of my projects.  Their miniboard service gets you three boards for 
$62.  They provide the software for free.

http://www.expresspcb.com/


shawn

Hi.
I've been using eagle a bit lately.
So far i produced (i.e. etched + soldered) one board.
The power bus  i haven't solved yet, but as for single
sided boards:
The auto router menu has "preferred directions" for
top and bottom layers ( in the"general" tab).
just choose N/A for the layer which you don't
want/need.
I made the board by printing onto a photo paper (the
cheapest i could find at office depot - their home
brand) dissolving it in water and etching in ferric
chloride. ( when i priced persulfate it came out
around 40$/kg and i didn't want to spend the money,
though i agree that it's probably better)
Most of what i am intersted in comes under eagle's
size restrictions so i havn't tried any "manipulations
/ segmenting" etc.)
Niv
P.S. I'm using a variant of your THVP + picpg -
thanks.

 
--- Byron A Jeff ####@####.#### wrote:
> I realize that this is a Pandora's box topic. But
> I've finally reached the
> realization that I'm going to have to come up with
> something sturdier than
> wire wrap. One of my permanent projects (a wall
> mounted thermostat)
> is falling apart after a couple of years of use. So
> I'm I wandering into the
> realm of PCB making and I'm soliciting advise.
> 
> Now not to come in empty handed I come with a few of
> the resources I've been
> doing research from/with. Then the questions.
> 
> RESOURCES
> ---------
> One of the best groups I've seen on the subject is
> the Yahoo group Homebrew
> PCBs: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> They talk about every method under the sun and have
> a vast amount of resources.
> 
> One of the best overall "how to do it" posts can be
> found here:
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/839
> 
> Eagle (http://www.cadsoft.de) does represent an
> opportunity for schematic and
> board layout of small boards. However both the free
> and hobbyist versions of
> the products are quite limited. The cost for
> reasonable sized (4" x 6") boards 
> is $125! (And only for strictly non commercial use)
> Ouch!!! 
> I've been playing with it and will probably use it
> for my first couple of 
> tests. More in my questions.
> 
> The PicList has several extended threads on the
> subject. You can find it at
> http://www.piclist.com and Google archives it.
> 
> Some interesting suppliers:
> 
>    Circuit Specialists: http://www.web-tronics.com
>       Really cheap presensistized copper boards
> 
>    Dyna-Art: http://www.dynaart.com
>       Silver plating among other items.
> 
>    Austin Electronics:
> http://www.austinelex.com/ae_118.htm
>       PCB PhotoFab kit 
>   
> After slogging through all the posts and all the
> different techniques I
> finally concluded that presensitied positive
> photoresist boards etched in
> plain old Ferric Cloride optimizes the costs and
> process repeatability.
> 
> QUESTIONS
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> Now on to the questions. The reason that I'm here is
> that this mailing list
> probably has the largest proportion of
> Linux/Unix/Open Source users in
> relation to the PICLIST of Homebrew PCB. And most of
> my issues are related to
> software.
> 
> 1 and 1A) 
>    Any Eagle users? I'm looking for one small eagle
> tip. How in the heck
>    do you create a power bus? I've used a few of the
> numerous tutorials
>    out there to layout my first board (a 16F628, 3
> resistors, and an 
>    LED). But I'm clueless as to how to create a
> physical representation 
>    of the power supply buses. Just draw a thick
> line?
> 
> 2) More Eagle. Is there any way to force the
> autorouter to generate a single
>    sided board only? Even after forcing the cost of
> the top side to 99, 
>    sometimes it will still generate a top side trace
> or two.
> 
> 3) Final Eagle. Has anyone tried any tricks for
> creating larger boards by
>    segmenting and cut/pasting the smaller boards
> into a larger board?
> 
> Non commercial Eagle
> (http://www.cadsoft.de/nonprofit.htm) may actually
> worth
> the $125. But it's limitations and lack of Open
> Source does have some cause
> for concern. So I'm interested to see if anyone has
> used PCB:
> 
> http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb
> 
> It's an Open Source PCB layout tool. It looks pretty
> good but it doesn't
> seem to have a lot of support. No tutorials or
> examples outside of its
> self contained documentation. I was wondering if
> anyone has used it?
> Any tips or tutorials that you know of? Is it worth
> the investment of learning
> or is Eagle the way to go?
> 
> I think in the long run it may be worth it. But I'm
> soliciting opinions.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> BAJ
> 
>
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On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, niv levy wrote:
> brand) dissolving it in water and etching in ferric
> chloride. ( when i priced persulfate it came out
> around 40$/kg and i didn't want to spend the money,
> though i agree that it's probably better)
>
That's strange... Here in the UK a sodium persulphate based etchant costs 
UK£15 per kilo. That's powder, enough to make 5 litres.
As opposed to a 250ml bottle of ferric chloride at UK£8..

Tim

On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 04:33:57PM -0400, Shawn Rich wrote:
> At 4/25/2003, Byron A Jeff wrote:
> >I realize that this is a Pandora's box topic. But I've finally reached the
> >realization that I'm going to have to come up with something sturdier than
> >wire wrap. One of my permanent projects (a wall mounted thermostat)
> >is falling apart after a couple of years of use. So I'm I wandering into 
> the
> >realm of PCB making and I'm soliciting advise.
> >
> 
> I have no experience with this company, but I am considering them for one 
> of my projects.  Their miniboard service gets you three boards for 
> $62.  They provide the software for free.
> 
> http://www.expresspcb.com/

Thanks Shawn,

I'm not interested in shipping boards out at this time.

Also their free software is Windows based. All of my other design operations 
are Linux based. That's why I'm looking at Linux based PCB making solutions.

Finally for shipped boards, the general PICLIST recommendation is Olimex:

http://www.olimex.com/pcb

They take Eagle. And their price for a 6.3x3.9 in board (24.57 in^2) is $26 +
$8 shipping -> $34. It's at about 1/2 the price of the expresspcb miniboard
and they do free panalization and cutting.

They are in Romainia and it'll take a couple of weeks to get the boards. But
if you need boards in bulk it's certainly worth it.

My problem is that I'm too impatient and I don't trust myself to have a
finalized design. So I really need to be able to do boards at home.

BAJ

On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 02:14:39PM -0700, niv levy wrote:
> Hi.
> I've been using eagle a bit lately.
> So far i produced (i.e. etched + soldered) one board.
> The power bus  i haven't solved yet, but as for single
> sided boards:
> The auto router menu has "preferred directions" for
> top and bottom layers ( in the"general" tab).
> just choose N/A for the layer which you don't
> want/need.

It works perfectly.

> I made the board by printing onto a photo paper (the
> cheapest i could find at office depot - their home
> brand) dissolving it in water and etching in ferric
> chloride. ( when i priced persulfate it came out
> around 40$/kg and i didn't want to spend the money,
> though i agree that it's probably better)

I agree. I know that the FeCl stains though. So I'll be careful.

> Most of what i am intersted in comes under eagle's
> size restrictions so i havn't tried any "manipulations
> / segmenting" etc.)
> Niv
> P.S. I'm using a variant of your THVP + picpg -
> thanks.

Cool! I'm glad that I'm helping someone.

BAJ

Am Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:14:26 -0400 (EDT) schrieb ####@####.#### (Byron A Jeff):

> I realize that this is a Pandora's box topic. But I've finally reached the
> realization that I'm going to have to come up with something sturdier than
> wire wrap. One of my permanent projects (a wall mounted thermostat)
> is falling apart after a couple of years of use. So I'm I wandering into the
> realm of PCB making and I'm soliciting advise.

Until now I've used Eagle for schematic capturing and layout, because I've
learned to use it at the university. But I don't like the license restrictions
so I think I'll give gEDA a chance...

I directly print the layout with a laser printer onto transparencies and expose
it with a 500 W halogen lamp for about 5-7 minutes. I use NaOH and Fe3Cl for
developing and etching, but Fe3Cl totally sucks. You have to be extremely
careful with it.

Jan


-- 
Dipl.-Ing. Jan Reucker   email:   ####@####.####
Ober-Ramstadt, Germany   home:    http://www.reucker-online.de/
ICQ#   46584597          PGP-Key: http://www.reucker-online.de/pgpkey.asc
Linux - because life is too short to reboot.

On Sat, Apr 26, 2003 at 11:37:08AM +0200, Jan Reucker wrote:
> it with a 500 W halogen lamp for about 5-7 minutes. I use NaOH and Fe3Cl for
> developing and etching, but Fe3Cl totally sucks. You have to be extremely
> careful with it.

I used to use percloric acid (20 (?) volume hydrogen peroxide with a bit
of hydrocloric acid in it) which seemed to stain less than ferric
chloride and looked cleaner. Probably just as nasty though.

these days I just let a manufacturer make mixed panels - the results
are nicer and I'm lazier.

john